Saturday, September 23, 2017

After Leaving PCG, Ex Member Almost Debt Free And Close To Buying Home



The feel-good story of the day!  No longer burdened by the unscriptural lie of the demand to tithe and give countless offerings to one of the most perverse and spiritually bankrupt Churches of God's on earth today, an ex-member is close to being debt free and buying his first home.

Almost Financially Free After Exiting PCG:
 September 22, 2017
Ever since I left PCG I am much better off financially. They would say pay your 1st, 2nd and every 3rd year your 3rd tithe and of course the tithe of the tithe before FOT. I was always struggling for money and the "church" was like, well, if you are struggling you are not obeying the tithing law and need to do more. I was at one point considering bankruptcy until I finally left. Now, I am doing much better financially. I have paid down a substantial amount of debt and actually have money in my bank account, unlike when I had to send my tithe money and barely had 2 cents left in the bank. I am getting financially debt free and if I was still paying all those tithes I would likely still be struggling all the time. I could never afford a to buy a home and always rented in part because the PCG seem to frown upon people buying houses due to the "end of days" and all and money should be put towards God's Work and not physical things. Now, I actually believe in a few short months I will be able to buy a home. --Former PCG member   Exit and Support

55 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great news for you, happy to hear! Hopefully, more will come out of these abusive groups.

DennisCDiehl said...

Very nice...Good for them!

Anonymous said...

Sounds like he got out young--before they destroyed his career.

Anonymous said...

They don't want you to buy a house, but they sure buy a lot of shit. Planes, college campuses, bird sculptures. You know, the important stuff the steeple don't have access to.

Unknown said...

Just $3000 a year, for 40 years in a Roth IRA, at a reasonable 8.5% a year return, is OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS that would be available to the person TAX FREE! This would fund a very nice retirement indeed!

Anonymous said...

Connie
8.5% a year? That's a thing of the past. To get anywhere near that, investors would have to go with very risky 'junk bonds' or the equally dangerous stock market, which is presently going up on fumes.

Byker Bob said...

It is amazing how big a church can become, and the assets it can amass, just based on offerings, and on partial compliance on a first tithe, without false prophecy creating a sense of urgency about end times that somehow never get around to happening, and without convincing people that a message nobody ever hears is a great and powerful work going out to warn the world.

The ACOGs practice a high level of extortion, not allowing members to ever live a life in which they are able to hold on to some of God's blessings. The worst offenders also oppress their members with hyper-legalism.

A pox on all of them! More people should vote with their feet and leave!

BB

Unknown said...

ANON--- 40 years was my statement, not one year or even 5 to 10.

nck said...

No, you're doing fine Conny.

Even conservative funds transitioning to sustainable investments did 7% on average over the past 20 years and sometimes 23% in 2016.

Dont be scared, but you cant beat the professionals. Unless you buy "world" for the exact same amount of money on exactly the same day of the year, over a period of 25 years, thereby only fluctuating the amount of stock because of fluctuating price. You should do 8% at least.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Even if you want to dumb down and just get involved in a simple index fund, you are looking at at least 7% return per year. A little study, or good advice, and some intelligent planning, and 8.5% is doable. Obviously a savings account or CD no longer offers that level of interest. Most ACOG members are not too savy on the topic of investment. You used to hear phrases like "play the stock market" amongst members, which is actually what you are doing if you are clueless and making crapshoot investments.

BB

Anonymous said...

Good news! Another person got smart! The lying leeches are no longer draining his financial lifeblood. I'm not in the greatest shape, but we do own our home, drive decent cars, etc. An earlier start in life based on sanity would have made even more difference, but I'm happy to be where I am today.

Allen C. Dexter

Anonymous said...

Connie: "Just Nambia for Crooked Hillary at a reasonable Covfefe = Pussygrabbing!"

Anon8:12: "Um, covfefe is not actually reasonable..."

Connie: "Nambia was my statement, not Zambia or even Namibia."

Seriously, Connie?

Anonymous said...

B
Talking about 'not allowing members to live a life,' try watching the YouTube program 'Meet the Mormons.' There are two documentaries with the same title, one by the Mormons themselves, but this is the other one. It follows two 20 year old Mormons as they spend two years, 365 days a year knocking on doors and stopping passer-bys, trying to convert them to Mormonism. They are not permitted TV, newspapers, magazines, books, radio, the internet. They are allowed only one letter per week from their parents. They are not permitted to be alone except when in the toilet. Otherwise their buddy must always be with them in the same room.
This is pure textbook socialisation. They are taught to live a deprived lifestyle. This is the opposite of the bibles 'enjoy your young man/woman.' Instead of being taught to be expansive, they are conditioned to shrink their personal boundaries.
I found it painful to watch. It should be called 'Meet the Spartans.'
Not forgetting, their goal for all this effort is a puny 4 converts per year.
What a waste of their lives. No wonder they showed him crying.
These cults are heartless.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations on being able to soon buy a house. You do realize though, you will have to sell it to David Pack. He really needs your $$$. He is in poor health and has payments too.

Anonymous said...

Connie,
I did have 40 yeas in mind. The Fed has painted itself into a corner where they cannot ever permit interest rates to go back to historic levels. The sky high national debt does not permit this. If anything, returns will be negative in the future. For instance, more banks worldwide are charging their depositors negative interest rate.
It's a new world. Only a world wide economic reset might change this.

Anonymous said...

Many of the church organisations do not approve of members buying their own homes.

Byker Bob said...

We are noted for our LDS population in the major metropolitan area in which I reside and conduct business. We have practicing Mormons and lapsed Mormons in the business community, and I interact with at least one or more of them each business day.

My first comment to you would be that while I can agree with you that Mormonism is a cult, one cannot compare it with Armstrongism for the purpose of making the ACOGs look better. In the first place, it is nowhere near as bad or as repressive as Armstrongism. By and large, Mormons do live fulfilling, and relatively free and stable, happy, family-orientated lives. The primary critique we generally hear is based on their treatment of the young people who were born gay into Mormon families. There is quite a sizable group, mirroring the general, non-Mormon population.

But, the young Mormon "bicycle" missionaries with whom I've had lengthy discussions, regard their two years of service very positively. They see it as building towards the types of people that they aspire to be, and they are treated much more fairly and ethically (not exploited) by their church than ACOG members have historically been. They see themselves as following the roles of the disciples whom Jesus originally sent out. Their experience instills discipline within them, compels them to be intimate with both scripture and the Book of Mormon, and teaches them to interact with people in such a way that will be helpful as they get into their careers following their mission. You can't be an introvert and be a Mormon missionary.

Obviously, some will wash out of the program, and may even become disgruntled. But the vast majority have a good experience with it. Most of the Mormon people I know are successful middle to high income earners, with nice homes, and happy children.

A couple of them have hit on me in attempts to get me to join their church, and while there's no way that I would ever do that, I respect them greatly. There aren't too many Christians who would research genealogies and get baptized on behalf of dead non-christians so they could be saved. Heck of a lot better than gloating about the Lake of Fire.

BB

Hoss said...

Many of the church organisations do not approve of members buying their own homes.

And getting life insurance seemed to be discouraged. Two of my biggest financial regrets of my early years in the WCG, not buying real estate and investing in life insurance.
Of our single-guys group, there was only one who was buying his own small apartment. The rest of us were like the WCG, getting cheap rentals...

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

I will never forget one of the struggling widows who came up to me after I gave a sermon on tithing several years ago. She was so happy to learn that God didn't expect her to send in all of the money which she had been contributing to the church for years. I got a lump in my throat the size of an apple as she pumped my hand and grinned from ear to ear! Unfortunately, so many of the folks who are trapped in these groups are among the people who can least afford to make such contributions.

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Byker Bob, I agree with your observations about many of the Mormons you have personally known - my experience has been much the same. While I don't agree with many of their doctrines/teachings, as individuals many of them are decent, hard working, patriotic and successful people.

Byker Bob said...

That's because these "religious fools" constantly operate in a 3-5 year window. Look at someone who bought a house 25 years ago. That person is probably now paying 1/3 to 1/2 the amount that someone who rents is paying, and the buyer has built a lot of equity. That equity can be borrowed against to start a business, or used to purchase a vehicle and take advantage of tax deductions that renters simply don't have.

Reality is, you are either buying a house, or by renting, you are buying it for someone else.

BB

Anonymous said...

BB
Two years of knocking on peoples front door, and stopping passersby. No new information during this time by means of the printed word or TV. No socializing, no partying. It's like a prison sentence. This is pure and simply robbing young Mormon men of two years of their lives.
Trivialising or whitewashing this is disappointing on your part. It's a great injustice. That many manage to succeed in life despite this, doesn't mean it's OK.
It's no different that people from dysfunctional families succeeding. It doesn't mean that the evil of their families should be shrugged off, or their suffering trivialised.
Try watching this PBS documentary.

nck said...

BB's defence of mormonism is bizarre.

I can list an equal percentage of succesfull "youngsters" "produced" through the wcg experience.

Bypassing Mormon "tribal" theory twice as bizarre a doctrine as BI. Or the notion of getting baptized for saving "genealogies" which is as abberant as WCG teaching that 99% of humanity would get a 2nd chance except BB since he has stated over and over to not be willing to dwell in the Kingdom if any trace of Armstrongism were to remain.

Nck

nck said...

And Miller.

First sermoning against tithing. Then making a claim about succesful mormons who all tithe.

Mormonism own billions of dollars of companies. A bizarre link between religion and business.

Or perhaps not if one defines the pursuit of happiness right.


Nck

Byker Bob said...

Having grown up in the most horrible cult in the entire history of the world, I'd be the last person to trivialize somebody else's bad experience. But, then again, I'm not sure here precisely who is attempting to trivialize what. I'm relatively certain these young Mormons didn't have the living shit beat out of them two or three times every day for ten years! (The Germans, hypothetically, would only have tortured us for 3-1/2)

I'm not saying this next statement is true of you necessarily, but we have had current ACOG members in the past dredge up bad things that happen in other groups thinking that it somehow makes Armstrongism look better. As if like "Oh hey, everybody else was doing it, too!" But, there was no comparison. Armstrongism was totally off the scale.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Well, nck, say what you will. All I can say is that the moment I saw Steve Martin's film, "The Jerk", I found myself wondering why I could not have been given the same opportunity as Navin Johnson, and been adopted by such a wonderful family.

BB

Anonymous said...

Sorry BB, but I think Heavens Gate or Jim Jones's cult might have been a little worse. It's sounds like you made it out and are doing just fine.

Anonymous said...

it's sad that God's Church takes the heat for the actions of people like Flurry....

hucksters far outnumber the servants.

nck said...

BB

What "beats" me is that you have stated that one of the main reasons you are using a monicker is "to protect your kin" (parents).

If you are not a total liar about your upbringing it truly puzzles me why you are protecting criminals like your parents. It couldnt have been wcg influence on your parent or there wouldnt be facebook pages where thousands of my generation still have good relations while non are associated with any cog nowadays.

Yours was truly the exception statistically as is proven by your statement "the worst cult ever". That is either extreme ignorance or and I grant that personal experience.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

What I wonder, nck, is whether Armstrong apologists like yourself and anonymous even bother to read what is documented at Exit and Support Network, the Painful Truth, and other prominent places. I am by no means a statistical anomaly.
And, I am not lying or exaggerating.

The thing is, practicing the church's child-rearing principles to their fullest and most zealous extent never got parents corrected or admonished, in fact quite the opposite! It got them ordained! Battle of wills. Break the spirit. And, usually the worst offenses and punishments were not over deviation from time honored societal codes. The worst offenses were the things children did that made the parents angry because they would cause interference in the parents' practicing of Arnstrongism.

As far as bygones go, I believe in taking the high road. Are brainwashed, deceived parents criminals? Are they the ones who are truly responsible? Should they have known better? Why weren't they rescued? How is it that somehow they never made it back? I can't be objective, so I remove myself from the judge and jury equation. And, oddly enough, that ends up being a gift to myself.

You are right that I'm OK. But, that required years of hard work, some therapy along the way, and much help and guidance from the God that Armstrongism and practicing Armstrongites know nothing about. In fact, I feel that I may have been cut some slack and blessed extra later in life because God knows what the Armstrong years were like, and what was done falsely in his name.

It would really be nice if there were no such thing as cults, and false teachers. But there are. As I noted above, not everyone makes it back from the surreal things experienced in a cult. Every once in a while though, one of us does, and we can articulate our testimony so that at least there are witnesses to set the record straight, just in case anyone has ears to listen.

BB

nck said...

I read about 90% of all materials ever produced on wcg ranging from all pastor general reports to the personal testimonies of abuse of even evangelist kids I knew.

Personal stories like yours baffle me and make me wonder about inconsistencies that look illogocal on retrospect. For imstance your claim of wanting to protect those that abused you in the manner described or you ending up at AC for even 1 day after what occurred.

I take notice.

However I hail from thousands of 2nd generation that have friendly relations over social media and would not bother to connect if that what occured to you had happened to them for even one year.

And no none of these people at the various "hubs" is related to COG anymore and spendimg most of their time on their succesful carreers and families.

As a matter of fact that is where we met first around 2001 on the planet alumni website.

All fine and dandy. A couple of haters of the AC experience but also pursuing their new lives. And of course there was Ollie if you remember him.

Anyhow.
I will not harp to much on your experience since it must not be a pleasant memory.

The inconsistencies just baffled me. But then again. Vietnam, 1972, or GTA s child rearings book were not a factor for my generation.

Although cold showers and a rubbing with a towel afterwards were still passed on as a way to a succesful life.

Most kids in my area went on to become bankers or leaders in industry. Some are making news saving whales. Others are at the forefront technological innovation.

But I am sure non of them would deny you your story or say it didnt happen.

I am pretty sure about that.

Nck



Gordon Feil said...

There was the reprint article on Insurance years ago. I recall it being #168 for some reason. It taught that a provider should have life insurance.

Gordon Feil said...

Byker, I admire your ability to articulate your thoughts. I do think that your expression of the worst cult ever is hyperbole though. There have been worse.

What WCG parents often did not understand is the need a child has to individuate. This is related to the hard wired security need to be valued and needed. People don't need what they already have, so it is our nature to be different in some significant way.

Byker Bob said...

nck, you have proven yourself capable of blinding yourself to the realities of WCG/HWA/AC in many ways throughout the past. There are plenty of people who had the same experiences as did I growing up in Armstrongism. This was something that I realized and by which I was encouraged and felt unalone as a result of attending SEP. and meeting many other of the church young people. These people are still very much around on the ACOG-related websites and share their experiences quite freely on the sites that are not censored.

Even I kept my mouth pretty much shut on the Planet Alumni site, where some participants apparently felt that their unaccredited AC educations had been of value, and stood them in good stead for successful lives. Basically, in the early 2,000's, I was trolling for old friends, looking to catch up on what had happened in one anothers' lives. So, I hung out on both the pro sites, and the con sites, and shared what I felt I honestly could on both. You say you were there, but as I've expressed in the past, I don't remember you or any of the exchanges we might have had. During that time, I was hanging out mostly on the Worldwide Church of God Alumni Forum, and also writing a lot of articles for Ed who was then the webmaster of the Painful Truth Website.

From the beginning of the internet experience, there have been some who have maintained that they have no idea where all of the criticism comes from, because they supposedly witnessed none of the bad things that are described. Most of these naive people are from some of the semirural areas of the US, or remote areas overseas, where somehow the official superficial facade sufficed as the reality.

Know this: I do not write for you, or persons with your mindset, and I certainly do not write seeking sympathy. I write for the people who did not get into strengthening themselves against possible future abuse through weight training, martial arts, or firearms proficiency, and who might never have gotten into having real lives. I write for those whose spirits were actually broken by the system, and who were hobbled by their WCG experiences, and perhaps lapsed into drugs and alcohol, or who continued the pattern of abuse on their own children. Some of these remained afraid of and distrusted therapy, and never got help. I write for them because in many cases, it is helpful to know that another person suffered through the same things as they, and refused to be a victim, ultimately surviving and having a good life. This is very encouraging to some of the people who might be otherwise inclined to depression and suicide because they have only been exposed to people like yourself who would deny and discount their very real experiences. These were not just a few isolated experiences. The badness was very pervasive and apparently still needs to be remembered and exposed.

I know what you are attempting. You are trying to divorce HWA from the theology, and to depict him from the standpoint of a secular luminary, a man of his times with a certain prescience regarding the world around him, and who accomplished lasting secular good as an international philanthropist and a puppet of the CIA. Someone who was largely misunderstood because his activities were over our heads. He was nothing of the sort. What he did was all street theater, a self-aggrandizing act for his audience. His legacy is incapable of being restored, because he was one of the tares, one who brought much more evil into peoples' lives than he ever did good. And, that's the fact, Jack.

BB

Byker Bob said...

There might have been a little hyperbole there, Gordon. The actuality could depend largely upon an individual's criteria, and perspective. I suppose there were probably members of the Manson family who were relatively unscathed, and might even have fond memories. Experiences often vary widely.

BB

nck said...

I have carefully avoided to insult you with sympathy since in our particular exchange it would imply you were seeking such. I have equally avoided to deny such experiences. As a matter of fact I have acknowledged the occurence of corporal punishment. In the end it does not matter what I have to say. If any victim reads about your experience, they will know what it true to them or not. The thousands of people with other experiences might not be put off immediately to Banned by my experience of not having been aware of it.

As a matter of fact I have on this blog "invited" former members from Tanzania, Kenya or the Geneva churches several times, to weigh in on how BI affected their lives. It would be of interest to me to see a discussion between a former WCG member from Dar es Salaam and one from Birmingham Alabama or the suburbs of Chigaco. I have even excited some Inuit visitors of Banned to express their opinions.

I do agree with you that the experience in Bonndorff might have been quite different from the one in Johannesburg 1978. Am I an apologist to note that in HWA's opinion Geneva would have been the ideal cosmopolitan setting for Ambassador College. He never said that Selma Alabama would need to be the model on which his "utopia" should be founded.

I was a lurker here. My initial engagement on Banned was sparked by your remarks that NOTHING was of value to Armstrongism and 100% was wrong. I found that an insult to many dedicated ordinary people, victims so you will. Since even as much as I dislike the Tkachs's a 100.000 dollars spent on the Red Cross for earthquake relief in San Francisco is a 100.000 dollars well spent. Even if I am pointing out that at the same time they claimed to cut costs for printing some "church" pamphlets. The facts are the facts.

I also absolved many of the dedicated funders of Armstrongism. A 100.000 1977 dollars spent to fight some terrible disease or leverage World Wildlife Fund was a 100.000 dollars well spent and I am perfectly capable of seperating the true donators from HWA. People would not have misunderstood since everything I say was publicized in the official reports to members aswell as the pastor general reports. Also the "gold platter" was not a "secret" but a publicized essential element of Armstrongist "king priest" dogma. The only difference is that most people read 95% of the content of such reports for "spiritual nourishment" or "dates to flee to Petra" while I only dissected the 2 lines dedicated to those secular activities and FULLY excavated how and who was involved with those activities.

And some of those initiatives are to this day supporting many scientific researches although I can see how science in the end supports business as well. Yes "over their heads" exactly. Not many COG people know how much their dollars have impacted the world.


I will give you ONE MORE EXAMPLE BYKER BOB.
The F15 fighter jets passing by the Korean peninsula just 48 hours ago and escorting the large plane keeping the peace, did NOT hail from South Korea this time as a complete abberation of former such flights taking the most northerly route since 1955.

This time the F15 hailed from OKINAWA.
If you would do you research you would have noticed that HWA got his high honor and praise from the emperor of Japan for his services rendered specifically on the question and matter of Okinawa.

Yes it was beyond the ordinary members heads when HwA spoke of a world held captive.


nck







Anonymous said...

I was raised, like BB, in the WCG starting in the late 50's onward. Personally, I think we were kids during the most orthodox era of the church, when new churches were being formed and manned by basically indoctrinated young people fresh out of Ambassador College. Each of our experiences were pretty much horrible to the degree of how zealous our parents were. and how obedient they were to the edicts passed down from Pasadena. There WERE moderate parents who raised their kids with love, but for most of us, our folks bought the farm, hook, line and sinker. Everyone I knew suffered abuse,abandonment, and neglect because we kids were non people. As I reached adulthood, you could say I was jealous on how things mellowed, softened. Of course it depended upon the church area you were in. Ministers were routinely moved to new areas every 3 or so years so they wouldn't get stale. Some like Dave Pack were shuttled around even more so, and left worlds of damage in their wake. 50+ years later I have left the physicality of the WCG, but it takes a bus load of effort sometimes to chase away the demons. It takes conscious effort not to get bitter when I realize I have no retirement plan or decent life insurance because I gave it all away to procure my seat on the airplane to Petra. I have no dream, no bucket list. I have the here and now and the week to week paycheck as I enter my middle 60's. What I do have is the freedom from organized religion and free will. That's worth a lot.

nck said...

anonymous 6:27

Let me first acknowledge your experience.

Who cares about scientific approaches and comparisons to other families of the age if one has suffered that. Only theoretically it would be interesting to see how the age of rock and roll came to be and why those girls went hysterical and bezerk seeing Elvis move some hips. This was an age of large scale opression wider than the rcg experience.

Since you have and are still experiencing first hand, the effects of such ordeal I would be interested in your informed opinion on a question I have.

Being you, with your experience and engaging in blogs and sites dedicated toward exposing the worst of the Armstrongist experience. Are you better served by people talking about the evils, oppression and abuse or is it in some way helpful that some of that money that could/should have gone to a retirement plan has also served to help a larger body of people outside the church and served in supporting political and legal bodies still in existence dedicated to peace, democracy the arts and US foreign relations in general, or are you neutral about that, couldn't care less and would rather emphasize that is has all come to naught, which is has not for the full 100%?

nck

Byker Bob said...

I appreciate your comments and support, 6:27, and hope life in freedom brings you the best!

One of the things that struck me back in the early 2,000's, as I looked for old friends, was how many church people were on the internet from what I call "Class of '95". Many people did a thorough review of their lives in the old WCG right about 1995, just as many of us had been compelled to do in 1975. They say there's the devil you know, and the devil you don't know. What I found was that folks from Class of '95 were dealing with a whole different set of problems and challenges than the ones we from Class of '75 had had to face. And, for the past ten years, we've been learning of the difficulties faced by the people whom the splinters have failed. Someone once called Armstrongism "the gift that keeps on giving". Actually, they meant "taking".

Fortunately, the minute anyone leaves these cults, the quality of one's life becomes better than it would be if one had remained. Healing can begin, and that, in and of itself can be a fascinating though occasionally bittersweet journey.

Sites such as Banned are a great workshop or think tank, where we as a community can attack the problems and explore solutions. There were so many things I still needed to learn as part of the healing process in year 2,000, even though I had been out for 25 years. I can't imagine what it would be like if there were no internet, and people had to go it alone. One very important factor is never forgetting, and never allowing people to diminish or revise our shared history. There definitely was a human toll that should not be allowed to continue, and never should be repeated. But then, you would know that better than any, with 50+ years tenure.

I hope your work involves things that you like. Personally, I plan to work until I drop, because I just don't know what I would do with myself if I did not have my work. There was a time when the church had much to do with all of our identities. Career can be that, as well.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Nck~ Can we picture Elijah posing for photographs, or basking in the sunlight of some sort of award or honor accorded him by the Assyrians or Babylonians?

BB

Byker Bob said...

Can we imagine Paul taking up collections from his gentile churches, and then donating some of the money to the Roman appeals court, or the Ephesian Metropolitan Opera?

Do we seriously imagine that that would give members who had sacrificed for his work warm, fuzzy feelings?

BB

nck said...

I visited Elijahs cave in Haifa. Christian folk made quite a spectacle there. I liked it, since the jews kicked me out of the museum opposite the cave for the Syrian stamps in my passport.

Anyway. No, I could picture Jonah sulking under a tree for having to present a Steuben Chrystal to the Assyrian dictator.

Nck

nck said...

Good question about Paul.

Well, it is my assertion that WCG was not a church but a movement driven by radical social change. Practical and simple solutions, Quaker in spirit, as it was driving social change into a new utopia.

It was never sold as a traditional christian church to anyone as they went out of their way of replacing that particular word with the words, ekklessia, college or foundation.

Nck

Anonymous said...

Hello Nck and thank you for your reply. Unfortunately in my case, I stayed far too long in the WCG. When I graduated from HS in the early 70's I walked away scott free, no regrets. But then I'll tell you how insidious the brain washing was; when I started having children of my own, something triggered in my brain, like a sleeper soldier. Those horror sermons by Raymond Cole and so many others about the Tribulation, the way the Nazi's would rip our babies from our arms and beat them against a brick wall to death, the poison gas chambers, the starvation to come. I returned to save my babies from it all. I still now, 50+ years later, cannot fathom how I ever fell for this but I did. So Nck, my question to you is, did any of that "money that could/should have gone to a retirement plan also served to help a larger body of people outside the church and served in supporting political and legal bodies still in existence dedicated to peace, democracy the arts and US foreign relations in general?" Is there any one thing that HWA did in his travels with dignitaries and heads of State do anything to procure World peace? All that moola spent on Stuben crystal and gold chalices and flatware and Airstream jets, influence any one politician or celebrity to HWA's own thinking? Not one. Would it have been better to make a retirement fund? For all the bullshit that HWA espoused and demanded to be spread from one church area to another like a sick game of telephone, hell yes! The smart ministers jumped ship with no life boat, not even enough Social Security to survive on in their "golden years." I am firmly of the belief that there are many, many ministers out there today in every splinter of the WCG that do not believe what they preach. They stay for the paycheck, because that's all they have. It's all moot anyway, nothing to change now. I agree with you that 100% are not experiencing what some of us are. Not all are so damaged. I don't walk around with a cloud over my head every day either. I accept my part in my own journey. I would have better spent my $ on my kids education or dental work or even a 1 week vacation that I no longer take anymore because I don't go to the Feast. I am not sure when you attended Nck, but in my experience, my church was not a movement driven by radical change, nor practical and simple solutions. I'm happy that your experience was apparently. All this IMHO Peace

nck said...

I will respond later to your interesting conversation.

Before answering!

From a quick read I gather that you were a minister in the period 1974-2004 employed by wcg, thrown on the trash heap without retirement about 59 years old, am I correct?

Fasten your seatbelts, because in my line if thinking ALL gold assets, art and real estate in posession of the church actually increased in value (apreciated) during HWA's rule. All of the church posessions were squandered by the Tkachs's Scnippert and Kelly and in my opinion immorally and illegaly.

There s more coming later. Brace yourself.

Nck

nck said...

It is hard to decipher the questions in your posting.

In the presence of those that blame HWA for micromanaging their each and every decision in life I find it hard to find an answer to the question if any financial decision like "retirement funds" would be in the personal domain.

Many members lived in areas where such insurance would be mandated by their respective governments and are now reaping the benefits of the consumption driven economy of the USA since they own the shopping malls for retirement.

I realize a lot were unfortunate not to live under "socialism" and are reaping the dark side of "personal responsibility." A case can be made that WCG's message was "urgent" and people were not encouraged to plan 40 years ahead. Others read the bible and knew that Christ said that no one knows the time of return. Others saw the huge long term investment in the auditorium and concluded that the leadership of the church lived by the principle of long term planning.

It is all very unfortunate that financial planning was not part of the "wcg gospel message" unless one interprets "tithing" as a way of "budgetting."
I am very careful here to acknowledge that in many cases WCG did not improve the members way of budgetting and planning. On the other hand I do know some former high ranking individuals to be among the wealthiest people of the USA. So it was possible to improve even by looking at human examples of "succesfull planning" like I liked to focus on. I acknowledge that it was equally possible to go bankrupt by other interpretation.


Now you asked about swaying world leaders to HWA's way of thinking.
It was not the mission of WCG to sway world leaders but to "witness", you know that.
Over time I have given numerous examples of how wcg dollars were put to "good use", if one reaps the benefits of the American Empire.

To repeat them would be heresy on this blog.

What would you like to know about?

(President Marcos implementation of land reform, World Court judges supported at a time they were building the organization instead of mediating today, US relations with Syria, Japanese - Israeli exchange of high diplomacy and technology, benefitting our exchange here, US Mediation services supported in their start up face now legally serving many Americans, helping Worldwildlife Fund in start up face now being a global operation, etc etc)


Please note that
Non of my examples serve to bolster HWA's image. They are meant to somewhat eleviate the regret you might have of spending a dollar or more on wcg activities.

nck





Anonymous said...

Hello Nck! No I was not a minister. My mother, a widow, did marry Satan's son who was ordained a local elder a week after they married. So that gives me an inside perspective. I was never employed by the WCG, but did attend Ambassador College for 5 days in the 70's, long story. I don't know why I have to fasten my seat belt or brace myself unless you plan to attack me on some issue. I am not about to defend myself for what I experienced, it's mine and mine alone. I am not an exceptional intellect, obviously, since I stayed in the the WCG far past the expiration date. We do agree that the Tkachs's misappropriated possessions and stole from the membership. The problem in my mind is that HWA had no right to those things in the first place. He was a pathological narcissist who was deluded to think he was an apostle and he deserved such things. No argument there. I write from the heart, so attack me if you will. You'll get no fight from me. (Oh, and I'm 63.) cheers!

nck said...

BTW

I do apologize for my atrocious spelling.
As some have already speculated, most of my musings are literally typed with one finger on a mobile phone, while taking a break on the toilet.

(This acknowledgement instantly turns Byker into a prophet LOL.)

nck

nck said...

Hi Anonymous,

I think I worded my postings in non offensive manner. That's because I like you.

What HWA was entitled too. Well I am no apologist for him. I know his sallary was modest compared to size of business.

WCG was quite transparent on their assets in the Behind the Work movies. I doubt however if people withheld part of the tithe because they didnt agree with the GIII or HWA's handcuffs.

They should have talked to God and make a deal with God. 20% less tithes God until HWA starts booking other hotels in Londen like the one that was reported to me through the worldwide news.

Well, we need more negotiators with God like Moses.

Nck

Anonymous said...

It is the stench of the fart that is offensive, not whether you appear embarrassed or display a savage grin while cutting it.

nck said...

2:29

My point. The "grin and embarrasment" is actually negotiating a non debatable issue isn't it.

That "trading guy" might have had a point although he was rather dogmatic.

Nck

Anonymous said...

Dear NCK, Thank you for your posts. I am my own worst enemy and I despise myself for sticking around way too long. The original post about the "ex member almost debt free" is a topic of hope for others. It's not too late to turn things around in most cases, but one cannot feel some sadness that like having an addiction; you spent all that $ on that substance and now, when you're sober you're left with nothing to show for it. You move on, but in retrospect, you wince at the at the memory. I wince at my own stupidity.

nck said...

I understand,

Most people are slow learners.
I know one thing for sure. You are not stupid.
Merely human.
And yes, as such we are our worst enemy.
I am regularly advised about this by those managing 50 - 800 billion dollars in pension funds. They are not machines. They are in constant need of advice and reflection, to face their humanity and act contrary to their fears and human desires or risk to loose. Not many people are stupid. Next monday I will be attending a summit on consumer psychology, persuasion design and the way choices will be presented to people and how to trigger certain parts of the brain in order for some choices "to come natural."

I find these topics of a fascinating nature and again am not inclined to call humans stupid. We are designed to survive any adversity. Unfortunately we are inclined to take the short cut. It doesn't work that way. It requires training. You/We could consider to look upon ourselves as being trained beyond most.


Yes, many things can be set right even later in life.
I've assisted people more advanced in age than you, from total bankruptcy to investors in Berkshire H. in comparative short time as compared to their debt.

Nelson Mandela worked stones for most of his life, was an enemy of the Western World a communist and now lists among Gandhi and Mother Theresa for eternity.

You will never be able to turn the wind!
It is my sincere wish that you will be able to adjust your sails and set course for better days to come.

Perhaps we will clash someday on this blog on another topic, since I am without bounds in conversation with anonymouses. But on this day and this hour. I am wishing you the best.

Sincerely,

nck

nck said...

5:55

I found the statement about stupidity unacceptable.
Therefore I present some (readable) material from how the "the best of the best" are trained to avoid human pitfalls like regret, pride, the avoidance of discomfort.

I could find the same for marketing. I am avoiding the pseudopsychological babble on "cults". Since I believe the "religion" part of the brain provides the very force that has propelled mankind forward, it is the part where art, creativity and imagination resides.

http://breakingdownfinance.com/finance-topics/behavioral-finance/cognitive-dissonance/

Anonymous said...

Many thanks to you Nck, I am grateful for your advice. Yes, stupid is the wrong word, I just hate to fall back on the brainwashed excuse. I do thank God every day I awakened from that bad dream and in the future will make a concerted effort to progress, and not wallow. Cheers!