Dave Pack says of HWA and himself...
" But they will not come with us—God’s true Church—because they are being deceived by false leaders about what The Restored Church of God teaches—and about what Mr. Armstrong actually taught.
“Yet they are all HUMAN. They are ALL subject to error, and so are YOU—and so am I—and so is this Work of God. Even though it is God’s Work, directed, empowered and blessed by Him, He carries it on through frail, weak HUMANS, and we humans are ALL of us subject to mistakes!’
Translation: God can't get us to get it right through the power of inspiration and whatever the role of a Holy Spirit that is suppose to guide us in all truth, whatever that means. And YOU make mistakes too.
“…Repent means CONFESS YOUR SINS …”
Observation: Yes it does Mr. Pack. We're waiting and "the prophecy is still very much 'on''' does not count.
“If I were looking for God’s one true Church, I would assuredly look for one that had confessed and corrected its errors! For all have had them—even the early churches…”
Observation: I wouldn't. Gospel Jesus promised it would be lead and guided in all truth. There is nothing in the NT about the church being prone to futsing up but correcting itself. The self does not correct all that well and only after the Sheepy Sheep wake up and grumble.
“Any criterion that assumes God’s TRUE Work through humans is absolutely perfect, unable to be wrong or make mistakes or hold to any error, is a false measuring stick and will mislead you.
Observation: It's not a criterion thing. No one I know thinks humans are "perfect." But most do observe that those who think they are , especially those who claim divine guidance, are the most difficult to stop because they are not prone to thinking it is their own views and not that of any deity that runs the show. You can't spend years saying "God says", "Christ is now wanting us to..." "Jesus tells us..." when they don't and be prone to admitting it.
“You may ask, do I, then, feel that we in this Work are full of errors, misleading the people? MOST EMPHATICALLY NO! We have not had to correct error many times. But each time we have corrected an error, we have had one fewer error left. If we KNEW of any error still remaining, now, we wouldCHANGE it! If and when we find one in the future, we shall correct it! The one who follows that principle is the MOST FREE FROM ERROR!”
Observation: It's also not a "we" thing. Most members and ministers quietly are uncomfortable with the errors of Apostles and Joshuas but say nothing. They hope it will be obvious to the Apostle soon enough to save them from having to speak up or caution the Apostle. Apostles aren't real good at listening or using that multitude of counsel thing. Think gyrating agreers on Dave's "counsel." One should rather say, the many, not the 'one' who follow that principle. When the one has to be convinced they are full of poo poo, it takes way too long and the damage is done.
I and The Restored Church of God do the same. Mr. Armstrong continues:
Observation: Yes you do...
“So, confessing such an error is one of the SUREST proofs to identify the people through whom the living Christ IS WORKING—and whom HE is USING!
Observation: No it isn't. You don't find the NT Apostles confessing to any missteps, misinformation or misapplication of scriptures, of which there were plenty. They set the president that readers can never question the content and proofs of their views.
“If you are looking for a leader who claims that he is PERFECT, and you think you have found him, and he is human, HE IS A FALSE LEADER. There is ONLY the ONE Leader who is perfect today—and He is theLIVING CHRIST! We follow HIM—and we trust you, with us, will do the same.”
Observation: No one does that. Only the brain dead would be looking for a leader like that especially in religion. You are merely playing humble and "only human" here to get yourself off the hook. It's easy to "trust" a being that does not actually make himself known in any comfortable or confidence building way. Everyone says "we follow Christ." Paul did and the other Apostles told him, "No you don't"
It is quotes like these from Mr. Armstrong that are often used out of context by splinter leaders who hold offices below the rank of apostle. They claim, “We can change (translate: overthrow) teachings of Mr. Armstrong because he admitted he got things wrong.” They cite Mr. Armstrong for authority to change what they absolutely have NO AUTHORITY to change!
Observation: Uh oh... "Below the rank of Apostle"? There is the problem. Dave believes that HWA was the only one who could correct the problems. Of course that means that the one man must admit to them instead of cursing those who did not agree with him. Paul did that too when confronted and that's not a compliment or example of how it should be done. The Ephesian Church in Revelation tried those who said they were apostles and found them wanting or inadequate and liars. Jesus congratulated them for that. That was a bottom up thing and not a top down thing. Bottom up accountability is safer than top down declarations of truth and from which only correction and change can come. Dave is noting that the reason your observations about him or HWA are wrong is because you are not of sufficient RANK to make such judgements.
Dave Pack is no real Apostle. He has been horrifically wrong about all his delusional writings about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai. His ideas are just that...ideas. They are uncomfortable ideas and will always blow up in his face as this has. He has disappeared to regroup and recover. I am very sure he has suffered losses we will never hear about.
Dave's "Christ" was not in any of his ideas about himself. Or may it was if he is one of the many who make claims about coming in Christ's name and claiming Jesus was the Christ, but actually do not when you consider the message and missteps made by ego.
Don't Let Your Apostle Make You Sheepy
Speak up to Fake Authority
9 comments:
Dave Pack left WCG because of its errors.
Dave Pack left Global because of its errors.
Now, Dave Pack says you shouldn't leave RCG because of its errors.
Hmmmmmm.....
Gal 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Jer 12:13
They have sown wheat, but shall reap thorns: they have put themselves to pain, but shall not profit: and they shall be ashamed of your revenues because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
Jud 1:16
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Speak up to fake authority
Well, pretty much all authority is fake. Authority is about power, control and manipulation, not truth and justice. But calling it "God's church" or "democracy" is supposed to justify the authority. So basically you are expected to "be a good member" or a "good citizen" and put up with what they dish out no matter how unfair it is.
“If I were looking for God’s one true Church, I would assuredly look for one that had confessed and corrected its errors!
Exactly! I would not attend your sect due to having many errors still. There is no one "true church". That statement is not in the bible. There are followers of the way, that live/worship in Spirit and in truth, nothing having to do with a building or a man.
The basic problem with the understanding of apostleship within the Armstrong movement, is that apparently certain people feel that it is a title one receives when leaving or being kicked out of the main entity from which they learned their theology.
It is incredibly stupid, beyond words, for Dave to lambaste would be "correctors of error" based on their rank falling below that of apostleship, when he, himself, took on that title, proclaiming it as fact but based solely on what he felt his position in ministry might be. Even if Dave had been ordained as an apostle by HWA, HWA had not been ordained to this rank by his own superiors in the ministry during the time when he acknowledged that there were superiors. HWA got his apostleship by buying into comments apparently made by Herman Hoeh, and repeated by others in Hoeh's peer group. Pack didn't even have a Herman Hoeh type to flatter him with such a concoction, so he fabricated it all by himself.
Remember, these are the fine folks that reject the chain of people who were carefully trained and ordained starting with the original apostles (Antenicene Fathers), calling them "Catholic" hundreds of years before that term had even come into play.
If the term "apostle" can be self-given, or surmised and applied by one's acolytes, then in that context, it is a truly meaningless term, and carries no authority whatsoever. It's like the garbage man proclaiming himself to be a corporate executive. Let's face it, Lenny and Squiggy could have started a better, less harmful ACOG than some of these guys!
BB
Eph 4 11 some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor teachers. Are these ranks, one above another? I don't think so. They are sequential. First, the apostle goes out (scouting the territory) then prophets and evangelists, if there are enough people to be cared for, pastor/teachers. HWA looked upon these titles as in the military. I see them as not one above another, but side by side. Different roles but not one person over another.
Good point, 6:51. What I've discovered from my voracious reading is that often, two (among other) things can influence our understanding today. One is that the eary translators of the Bible didn't always have a functional understanding of the nuances of the languages they were translating into English or other languages. We see examples in the NT in which Aramaic is preserved and quoted in places where some of the more diligent ones wanted to be precise, such as Jesus' words from the cross when He felt that Father God had forsaken Him. Anyone who ever purchased a Honda back in the 1960s is familiar with "Japanese English". Why would there not be such a thing as "Greek Aramaic", "English Greek", or "English Hebrew"? The very act of translating results in a paraphrase, regardless as to how skilled the translator is.
Also, various teachers do tend to weave concepts from their own time and place in history into Biblical statements and lessons, inappropriately, changing the meanings into things perhaps never intended by the original authors. (This may be the reason why some believe that everyone in the Bible was white.) If challenged, rank gives them plausibility. They cite their alleged apostleship, or Petrine primacy, rather than providing actual scholarship. It can take you off in false directions without any recourse for following truth. This rank vs descriptive functions principle which you cite is an example of "understanding" from Armstrongism, Adventism, and perhaps ultimately, Catholicism. It may have originally crept into Catholicism from the Roman society's hierarchy of titles, rather than the communal egalitarian lifestyle of the earliest Christians.
BB
By the way, speaking of Apostles, I would encourage all readers here to also visit Mike's blog, Ronald Weinland False Prophet. Some of the actual jurors are posting there, and I would particularly recommend reading the thread associated with Ordinations, Part 2, where juror # 215, the foreman of the jury at Ron's trial has presented details of the evidence considered. It doesn't leave any room for doubt regarding the actual motivations behind the Weinland ministry. It is very rare that we would receive such clear cut evidence as to how the scam operates in the favor of "apostles". Lest anyone believe that HWA was somehow above similar behavior, I would suggest contemplating his multiple homes, expensive automobiles, globe trotting, clothing, objects of art, and furnishings.
This is a major bomb shell exploding in living color right before our eyes!
BB
"…Repent means CONFESS YOUR SINS"
I do not remember him confessing his sins. He instead preaches all pastors sin, Paul sinned, David sinned and therefore I sin. He forgets that they all humbly repented and put away all evil. Pack does not repent and if he did he would not rule with a fist, but would guide the assembly with love towards all including the splinters, which he hates. He has not repented! Such blind sheep!
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